FY2024 Annual Meeting

codepoet80

Meeting minutes from our annual meeting held Feb 11, 2024 on Discord follow…

codepoet — Today at 1:00 PM

OK, let's get started. This is the legally required annual meeting for codepoetry, inc. the parent company of webOS Archive. Participation in this channel from now until the meeting ends will be part of the meeting minutes.

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:01 PM

I haven't looked at a financial report in a while, but it mostly made sense after I looked at the spreadsheet

codepoet — Today at 1:01 PM

To be clear, no one is required to participate, but @nomad84 and I (as board members) have to host it, since codepoetry, inc is a C-corp in U.S. tax law.

[1:03 PM]

First item of business is last year's financials. If you compare the plan:

To the actuals:

You can see we were pretty close.

[1:04 PM]

The major variance is highlighted in the Budget Spreadsheet - the red $69.95 wasn't actually spent. I had planned to renew some of the app domains, but found out I had initially paid for 2 years (before the business entity was created).

[1:04 PM]

As a result, we had a surplus, which we donated to the Internet Archive, and @Tofe for some dev equipment.

catx — Today at 1:04 PM

Hosting revenue is advertising-based?

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:05 PM

Yeah I didn't understand that item

codepoet — Today at 1:05 PM

Thanks, ya that'll be a change going into next year. I was renting out excess capacity on the server last year, to help make ends meet. That is no longer working out, so that revenue will be going away.

[1:06 PM]

I had personally put a chunk of money into the account in September, to pay domain costs, then when I found out those domains were not actually up for renewal, we ended up with a surplus.

[1:07 PM]

Even though we gave it away, only half of that was to an official charitable organization, so we did end up with a small Federal tax burden of about $35

[1:07 PM]

Any other questions or comments on Fy2023?

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:08 PM

Were there no expenses associated with tax filing?

catx — Today at 1:08 PM

Github/patreon are the primary (only?) donation mechanisms?

@Grabber5.0

Were there no expenses associated with tax filing?

codepoet — Today at 1:08 PM

I did it myself. So only a stress expense, not a cash expense

Preemptive — Today at 1:08 PM

You have to pay tax on that small amount?

@catx

Github/patreon are the primary (only?) donation mechanisms?

codepoet — Today at 1:09 PM

Those are the two that people are actively using. I also have KoFi setup, and people can buy converted apps on Google Pay to help out a little:

https://www.webosarchive.org/support/

@Preemptive

You have to pay tax on that small amount?

codepoet — Today at 1:10 PM

26% across the board for a C-Corp, after allowed expenses are deducted from revenues.

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:10 PM

Are there related state and local taxes?

codepoet — Today at 1:10 PM

(odds are I've overpaid, but I'm personally putting that cash in, so I'll call it a learning experience)

@Grabber5.0

Are there related state and local taxes?

codepoet — Today at 1:11 PM

<redacted> has a very high revenue threshold for State business tax. We would have to clear $300,000 a year to owe them money. (edited)

[1:11 PM]

I tried to pay my local country taxes, which I assessed at $3, and they sent it back and told me not to bother them again

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:12 PM

KC would happily require me to pay them even for a nonprofit registered in another state I'm sure

catx — Today at 1:12 PM

Could I suggest noting who the hosting provider and email provider are? (administrative suggestion)

codepoet — Today at 1:13 PM

Fair question: Linode provides the server, Sherweb the (webOS compatible) mail.

Preemptive — Today at 1:14 PM

Presumably "Business registration" is a one-off. What was "other" $111 in Dec?

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:14 PM

I'm embarrassed to not be on that donor list

codepoet — Today at 1:14 PM

Next year I just aggregated them, didn't mean to call anyone out.

But transitioning to the 2024 budget...

catx — Today at 1:15 PM

I'll try to remember to check about Linode this week - it's possible that might be something that could fall under our personal use exemption (as long as the only thing on there is not-for-profit).

codepoet — Today at 1:15 PM

Our donations actually dipped a little starting in December. Christmas is often tight, so understandable. However, they haven't bounced back.

[1:16 PM]

Overall costs should be a bit better under control, as I've reduced the number of domains/experiments I'm paying for. Renewing webosarchive.com for one more year is highlighted as a stretch goal -- since it helps with discoverability. However, if we can't afford it, I'll let it go.

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:16 PM

Losing my job didn't help. I know I pulled up the donation page several times last year and I guess never followed through.

@Grabber5.0

Losing my job didn't help. I know I pulled up the donation page several times last year and I guess never followed through.

codepoet — Today at 1:16 PM

Family is more important than web services for a dead platform! No guilt required!

[1:17 PM]

(This would be the first thing axed from our personal budget if we needed to!) (edited)

Preemptive — Today at 1:17 PM

Yes, I haven't followed through on my actual list of projects (Xmas donations) as yet.

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:18 PM

Sorry, I guess that was a little off-topic

codepoet — Today at 1:18 PM

Currently, the Linode hosting is costing a little extra because I have the auto-backup turned on. It gives me a nice feeling of safety for $5 a month, but I also have a back-up script pulling a copy to my home network, so if things get tight, I'll turn off Linode's backups to save cash.

catx — Today at 1:18 PM

It helps to explain some stuff around donations.

Preemptive — Today at 1:19 PM

I was wondering if the payment services had a regular option - if we upped the numbers with maybe $? a month, it might be affordable for most and easy.

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:19 PM

Ah smarter than I was with pulling down backups from my own host 10 years ago Good on that

@Preemptive

Presumably "Business registration" is a one-off. What was "other" $111 in Dec?

codepoet — Today at 1:19 PM

Sorry, @Preemptive, didn't mean to ignore this, just missed it. The $111 was the donation to the Internet Archive and to Tofe, trying to reduce the end-of-year cash situation to save on taxes.

@Preemptive

I was wondering if the payment services had a regular option - if we upped the numbers with maybe $? a month, it might be affordable for most and easy.

codepoet — Today at 1:20 PM

Good thought. Yes, GitHub and Patreon both allow recurring, and I could try different default amounts. Honestly even $1 - $2 helps!

[1:21 PM]

The other change in plan for FY2024 is to try to sell some of those surplus TouchPads -- that's the "hardware sales" row. I only need to sell a few with a little margin (and not lose too much on shipping) to help keep the lights on.

@codepoet

Good thought. Yes, GitHub and Patreon both allow recurring, and I could try different default amounts. Honestly even $1 - $2 helps!

catx — Today at 1:21 PM

As a general suggestion, notes like "$2 pays for 10% of our monthly server hosting" can also help people understand where their donation goes/what it's useful for.

codepoet — Today at 1:22 PM

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll work on updating the "Support Us" page and options, as well as getting the hardware Shop onto the site.

Preemptive — Today at 1:23 PM

Do you need some kind of approval vote?

codepoet — Today at 1:23 PM

We'll consider it approved unless there are objections/modifications here. Any other discussion on FY2024 budget?

Preemptive — Today at 1:23 PM

I'm good

catx — Today at 1:23 PM

Not from me?

codepoet — Today at 1:24 PM

Last call...?

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:24 PM

codepoet — Today at 1:24 PM

Budget is approved then.

[1:24 PM]

That's all the legally required business. Any other topics we want to discuss?

[1:25 PM]

Some decent content starting to slowly appear on the Forums!

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:25 PM

Are there other ways I/we can get involved and/or help with the org this year?

[1:25 PM]

What do you need from us? How can I help? (edited)

catx — Today at 1:26 PM

(and what would you like from us, as a separate/going above thing)

codepoet — Today at 1:27 PM

Thanks for asking

Forum content is more discoverable than GitHub/Discord, so I'd just suggest posting there -- even if its just resurrecting still-relevant content from the dead forums, to help out newbies. I try to keep the docs updated, but there's been a lot of changes on Internet platforms lately (Xitter API getting closed, Google auth changes, etc...) so a more "living" public discussion helps with our relevance. (edited)

Preemptive — Today at 1:27 PM

i would second that

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:27 PM

Yeah, unfortunately chat tends to hurt forums

[1:28 PM]

I learned that the hard way on my own site

codepoet — Today at 1:28 PM

There's a bit of an open source backlash toward Discord lately too. People are less inclined to participate here, I think.

Preemptive — Today at 1:28 PM

There was quite and interesting chat I think about messaging services recently and I meant to post: Please put this SOMEWHERE

catx — Today at 1:28 PM

Different use cases -- chat's infinitely better for near-realtime. Forums are a pain to search through/use.

codepoet — Today at 1:28 PM

And slower -- but more durable.

@codepoet

There's a bit of an open source backlash toward Discord lately too. People are less inclined to participate here, I think.

catx — Today at 1:29 PM

I think people are going to be cranky about any messaging service, tbh. Just different sets of them.

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:29 PM

On the subject of the forums, I confess I haven't been on them much, as I forgot they had been created. On the mobile site in particular, I had a hard time following the layout. Maybe that's just me, but it seemed more difficult to navigate. Is that just familiarity?

@codepoet

And slower -- but more durable.

catx — Today at 1:29 PM

Only sometimes -- they too vanish into the ether.

@catx

Different use cases -- chat's infinitely better for near-realtime. Forums are a pain to search through/use.

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:30 PM

I disagree about searching. A good forum search is important and invaluable to users

@Grabber5.0

codepoet — Today at 1:30 PM

Ya, I find it a little confusing, but the more I use it, the more comfortable it feels. And with forums, at least archive.org can crawl them (Discord messages, not so much)

catx — Today at 1:30 PM

I found the old https://www.webos-internals.org/ easier to navigate.

@Grabber5.0

I disagree about searching. A good forum search is important and invaluable to users

catx — Today at 1:30 PM

I think we're agreeing here You have to have good search capabilities for a forum to be useful... but they aren't universally good.

Preemptive — Today at 1:31 PM

It's important to remember that "we" basically run everything - in terms of the community - now. So limited as our resources are now, we don't currently have to reply on third parties much and can cross-promote.

@catx

I found the old https://www.webos-internals.org/ easier to navigate.

codepoet — Today at 1:31 PM

Alas, its gone stale. The Docs page was an attempt to augment that with fresher content -- but that old Wiki does come in handy!

@codepoet

Alas, its gone stale. The Docs page was an attempt to augment that with fresher content -- but that old Wiki does come in handy!

catx — Today at 1:31 PM

There's still a bunch of useful things in there -- but my comment was more about ease of use.

Preemptive — Today at 1:32 PM

Yes, there's a bit of a spread of information sources. We could try to define it better, but I'd say chat here, discuss on forums and solid technical data on wikis

[1:32 PM]

News on pivotCE

@Preemptive

Yes, there's a bit of a spread of information sources. We could try to define it better, but I'd say chat here, discuss on forums and solid technical data on wikis

codepoet — Today at 1:33 PM

+ Docs

@Preemptive

News on pivotCE

codepoet — Today at 1:33 PM

About that... it wouldn't hurt to update that a little more frequently. Its still high on the search rankings!

@Preemptive

Yes, there's a bit of a spread of information sources. We could try to define it better, but I'd say chat here, discuss on forums and solid technical data on wikis

catx — Today at 1:33 PM

FWIW, I ended up here via https://www.webosarchive.org/docs/community

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:34 PM

I got bombarded by ads recently on one of the webOS sites - was it pivotce?

codepoet — Today at 1:35 PM

Precentral, maybe? It got hijakced, IIRC

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:36 PM

I did get a popup ad for some Microsoft service on the pivotce homepage just now (edited)

catx — Today at 1:36 PM

(and pretty sure I ended up at webosarchive via pivotce)

codepoet — Today at 1:36 PM

ooh, maybe my PiHole squashed that

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:36 PM

Those are the ones that drive me away

catx — Today at 1:36 PM

I haven't seen any, but my default browser doesn't have javascript enabled.

@codepoet

About that... it wouldn't hurt to update that a little more frequently. Its still high on the search rankings!

Preemptive — Today at 1:37 PM

There's a draft waiting... I don't (Ublock origin) know about ads... Unless we get a response from @pattyland , we may be a bit stuck with pivotCE, but I'm an editor and can "draft on behalf" and assign authorship to existing accounts. I don't know (doubt) I can set up new accounts, but I can credit authors posted with my byline

catx — Today at 1:37 PM

(as distinct from using an ad blocker)

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:38 PM

Ah, I do use that on desktop, so I guess it was because I'm on mobile

codepoet — Today at 1:40 PM

well bottom line is posting helps. links help. a bigger community means more potential for covering costs, and attracting another dev or two wouldn't hurt either.

[1:41 PM]

I have high hopes for the VCF conference -- I'm footing the costs personally, but will bring some Touchpads to sell on consignment, and hopefully meet some other folks who like to tinker with code.

catx — Today at 1:41 PM

I'm mildly amazed to hear myself saying this, but is there any way to at least collapse the sections of the forum? It's a whole lot of scrolling around to try and figure out where to look for things.

Preemptive — Today at 1:41 PM

I did look at the minutes of the previous meeting and felt things were fairly stable and there wasn't much to add. But we could consider reviving some form of Community / forum /webOS user group meeting again. But it's only really worth it if there are things going on - like projects. It seems there are a few things, so we could consider it.

@catx

I'm mildly amazed to hear myself saying this, but is there any way to at least collapse the sections of the forum? It's a whole lot of scrolling around to try and figure out where to look for things.

Preemptive — Today at 1:42 PM

home page or "all discussions" view? (edited)

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:43 PM

Did you say the VCF conference would be available online?

@Preemptive

home page or "all discussions" view? (edited)

catx — Today at 1:43 PM

obDense: there's a difference?

codepoet — Today at 1:43 PM

@nomad84 is hosting the forums, and I'm sure he'd be open to suggestions -- but it doesn't look like he could make it today. If there's not other topics, I propose wrapping up this formal meeting, then we can keep the discussion going on Forums structure.

@Grabber5.0

Did you say the VCF conference would be available online?

codepoet — Today at 1:43 PM

I think they're posting after-the-fact, but I'll find out!

Grabber5.0 — Today at 1:43 PM

East isn't feasible, but Midwest may be depending on the job situation

@codepoet

catx — Today at 1:44 PM

I definitely appreciate that @nomad84 updated the colours to be less painful.

@codepoet

nomad84 — Today at 1:44 PM

I’m here

@catx

obDense: there's a difference?

Preemptive — Today at 1:45 PM

There is on my screen. Home shows the forums (coloured blocks) with the latest post. All discussions lists threads in order of recency (edited)

@Preemptive

There is on my screen. Home shows the forums (coloured blocks) with the latest post. All discussions lists threads in order of recency (edited)

catx — Today at 1:46 PM

Ah, my bad I was thinking of them as "forums list" and "forums list"

[1:47 PM]

(I do see the difference now)

Preemptive — Today at 1:47 PM

So i think my two points are: 1. Do people want to have reasonably regular, focused meetings (similar to the old user group ones) IF there is enough going on to discuss.

@Preemptive

So i think my two points are: 1. Do people want to have reasonably regular, focused meetings (similar to the old user group ones) IF there is enough going on to discuss.

catx — Today at 1:49 PM

Having not made it to any of the old user group ones, what were they like?

codepoet — Today at 1:49 PM

For the sake of the meeting minutes, calling the meeting to a close. Obviously, feel free to continue chatting. Thanks to all who could participate!